Last Updated on February 23, 2023 by

Howard Marx is the Founder and CEO of Vinvinea. He founded this global B2B business to disrupt the wine industry by enabling wineries, distributors, and retailers to generate greater profits through innovative digital solutions, empowering firms on their product’s positioning and sales.

In these roles, Howard leads global and cross-functional teams focused on customer sales growth, leverages digital solutions, and increases the firm’s customer base and year-over-year revenue.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

• Howard Marx talks about how Vinvinea started
• Finding the right importers and distributors
• How Vinvinea arrived at its pricing model
• Howard discusses how Vinvinea created their platform and the challenges they faced since launching in 2017
• Moving from physical to virtual trade shows during the pandemic
• Vinvinea’s strongest user base
• Where Howard sees the global wine trade going in the next few years

In this episode with Howard Marx

How does a company build a massive database of 100,000 importers and distributors from scratch? 

Today’s guest, Howard Marx, talks about how Vinvinea established a system that connects producers and suppliers. It is proud to have grown its list of partners to 100,000 since launching half a decade ago. 

In today’s episode of the Legends Behind the Craft podcast, Drew Thomas Hendricks sits down with Howard Marx, Founder and CEO of Vinvinea. Howard talks about how the idea for Vinvinea came about in 2016. He also shares what it was like when they transitioned from physical to virtual trade shows during the pandemic and where he sees the industry going in the future.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

• Barrels Ahead
• Drew Thomas Hendricks on LinkedIn
• Howard Marx on LinkedIn
• Vinvinea
• Email the team at Vinvinea: info@vinvinea.com

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Barrels Ahead.

Barrels Ahead is a wine and craft marketing agency that propels organic growth by using a powerful combination of content development, Search Engine Optimization, and paid search.

At Barrels Ahead, we know that your business is unique. That’s why we work with you to create a one-of-a-kind marketing strategy that highlights your authenticity, tells your story, and makes your business stand out from your competitors.

Our team at Barrels Ahead helps you leverage your knowledge so you can enjoy the results and revenue your business deserves.

So, what are you waiting for? Unlock your results today!

To learn more, visit barrelsahead.com or email us at hello@barrelsahead.com to schedule a strategy call.

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:03

Welcome to the Legends Behind the Craft podcast where we feature top leaders in the wine and craft beverage industry with your host Drew Hendricks. Now let’s get started with the show.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 0:19

Drew Thomas Hendricks here. I’m the host of the Legends Behind the Craft podcast. On this show, I talk with leaders in the wine and craft beverage industry. Before I get on with the show, quick sponsorship message, today’s episode is sponsored by Barrels Ahead. At Barrels Ahead, we help the wine and craft industry scale their business through authentic content. Go to barrelsahead.com today to learn more. Today, I’m super excited to talk with Howard Marx. Howard is the founder and CEO of Vinvinea. It’s a global platform that connects wineries, distributors and retailers. Welcome to the show, Howard. 

Howard Marx 0:53

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 0:55

So thank you so much for being on so Vinvinea. Tell me about it. How did you end up? Tell me about the company and its organization?

Howard Marx 1:04

Sure. It’s Vinvinea.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 1:07

How did you find out?

Howard Marx 1:09

Yeah, the name. We chose that name because it’s both. It’s a great name in both the Latin languages French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and it’s also a great name. Vinvinea in the Germanic languages, and Dutch, English, so on and so forth. So yeah, so either way, is fine. Yeah, it’s a global company. Yes. It’s a we’re headquartered in the States. But it’s, we have a team, a global team around the world, people in Europe, people in Asia as people in Latin America. And there are there are a couple of us here in the States. Yeah.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 1:53

And it’s from what I’ve seen, connect, basically, the whole wine industry, what, from the, from the wineries all the way down to the retail platform in this global marketplace and thinking of 100,000 or so connections?

Howard Marx 2:05

Correct. So that’s the whole goal to connect the wine world. So suppliers, producers, that is wineries and vineyards want to sell obviously want to send their southern wine. How would Greek winery are where we’re who would agree winery sell to in the Netherlands? For example? Who would a California Oregon Washington State winery? sell their wine? If they want to enter France or Germany? Or Austria, Switzerland? Who they contact? Who are those importers? Where are those distributors, so you come to us. And you can easily not only present your offers. So that’s one of the first functions you present your offers and say, let’s say you want to do would want to export, or you would want to sell your oversupply Europe or in Asia or in America, there’s 152 countries on our platform. So you would present that offer? And we would we send emails to those importers and distributors, which are interested in let’s say us wine, if that’s the example or you know, Greek wines from my earlier example, or what have you, almost like

Drew Thomas Hendricks 3:41

a matchmaker. I’m sorry, yes. Doing a little bit of matchmaking?

Howard Marx 3:45

Well, yes, because you can present your details and say, you know, I have 100,000 bottles or 1000 bottles or 100 bottles and the price is x and the details, you know, it has been it’s from this ABA or this appellation and the viral is blend and you can pick and choose all the you know, we have voted 15 142 variables on, you know, on our database on and so forth. And then you can write some notes, obviously, and then you there’s critics, you can add the critics and so on and so forth. So then whoever gets that will have a good sense of what product is being offered. Sure.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 4:35

That sounds like an incredible platform. So you came up with this idea back in 2016 2017 when you launched it. Yes, correct.

Howard Marx 4:45

I came up by this idea because I was in Spain trying to help a couple vineyards in Spain sell their wine in the Netherlands. And it was overwhelming. And it was extremely hard to connect to the right with the right. Firm in the wine world, so we amassed a huge amount of data slowly and build up the database. And we constantly updated. So it’s up to date.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 5:26

Well, that’s great. So you’re preloaded, So previously, so I’m trying to figure out what what life was like before it was all very just like one to one focus where you’d have to go out there research. And everybody would be building their own little kind of rolodexes of, of names and connections. And you’ve now kind of equalized it by building this this tremendous database.

Howard Marx 5:47

sure that that’s right. Correct. Drew. And that’s, and you could always use Google, my God, if you Google importers, distributors in the Netherlands or in the States, for example, you’ll be there for the rest of your life. You know, going through, you know, Google lists. And so what we’ve done is we’ve, we’ve actually loaded up with the right contacts, the right emails, the right phone number, and the right location for each and every importer and distributor around the world. So that way, you don’t waste time and say you’re interested in Switzerland, for example. And so I don’t, I don’t know the algorithms for Google, I’ve never worked for them. So we actually have amassed the information right on your fingertips. And that is easily accessible, it’s art, it’s actually very economical. It’s $19 US dollars per month. And you can cancel at any time. Most people just have a reoccurring account with us, because, you know, first year thinking about South Korea, that you’re thinking about Japan, and so on, and so forth. So you would want to, you know, and it depends, it’s a very flexible system. So it also allows you to find the right importer and distributor in any country. So for example, you don’t, you don’t need to present an offer, you could actually go online and say, I need what would be the best importer and distributor for our wines in New Zealand. And so you can pinpoint which ones you would think and then you can open the websites, of course, and you can assess which ones would be best for your products, obviously, one knows, your, you know, one’s products quite well, and so on. So for so that is a that allows you to pinpoint and obviously grow your business dramatically.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 8:06

That’s tremendous value. How did you go about growing this list of to 100,000? is big business today? Is it leveraging different industry databases? Like I know, I subscribed to wine industry network, and we’ve got our little network of 10,000 wineries in the US. How do you go about growing

Howard Marx 8:23

it? Well, in some countries, there’s public information. The states has public information, for example, who has an alcohol license in the state of x. In some countries, there isn’t public information. So we actually went both to Google, to the Commerce, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on so forth, and have had people amass slowly, the amount the information that we need. Now, other countries work as monopolies, for example, Sweden, and the state, the state of Sweden, the country of Sweden controls the purchasing, but they don’t go you know, so it does depend on country. Now. You can also third function as you can as a as a winery, you can also view requests for winery, so let’s say an importer in the Netherlands, you know, is interested in a Greek wine or a US wine. So they actually go online to our website and fill out a form and then we emailed you know, the suppliers in California or in Oregon or what have you to see if they’re interested in exporting the their wine to the importer or distributor in the Netherlands. So it works both ways. And you you’re able to see those requests online for the same price. We’re only charging 19 US dollars for services.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 10:18

Yeah, that’s incredible. So that’s your so it’s really a flat fee membership for to access all of all of your capabilities. Correct. That’s pretty good. How did you how’d you arrive at that pricing model? It’s a it’s one of the most straightforward I’ve heard to date, especially in the SaaS industry.

Howard Marx 10:36

We figured it’s cheap enough. Her big suppliers, small suppliers, big producers, small producers, it’s it’s a good number. It’s about 19 euros right now. So it’s a it’s a good number for everyone. Yeah, I, it wasn’t such an incredible algorithm that we get together to come up with this. This 25 15

Drew Thomas Hendricks 11:05

seems too low. Yeah.

Howard Marx 11:09

That’s right. There we go. We’re trying to you know, enter the market. So we might be increasing prices, like everyone else has been increasing prices, you know, yeah, ation or what have you. But right now, we’re trying to keep it low for you know, we’re trying to get more people on board. Oh, absolutely.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 11:31

So from so in 2017. I mean, tell me about some of the challenges of launching this. It’s such a huge initiative or such a huge undertaking.

Howard Marx 11:41

Yeah. Many challenges. Challenges with coding. Start with that. Back end, front end, challenges with design challenges with trusting the right people, challenges with the database that we just spoke about, and challenges with the sales team that we have. Who works, you know, round the clock, they don’t work around the God, but we do have people around the clock monitoring emails, and so on, so forth. challenges with, you know, following up and so on and so forth. So that’s, yeah,

Drew Thomas Hendricks 12:27

like the initial lunch, like I’ve done a couple software platforms, but especially the marketplace. It’s really hard to get from zero people visiting the site to you don’t want to go you want somebody to come in, and it’s a ghost town. Like, how did you from entrepreneurially? How did you launch it?

Howard Marx 12:44

Yeah, well, vineyards and wineries are quite interested in finding the right importers and distributors. Because you can have currently, you can currently have an importer, let’s say in the Netherlands, or Poland, but they’re actually distributing another wine, or many other wines. And there’s competition among those. And so they’re not really making an effort on your wine. And so maybe it would be best for you to search for another distributor, so on and so forth. So that works in our favor. On the distributor importer side. They’re interested in actually presenting offers to retailers. So that’s very important for them so they can offload any product that they are not moving. And some of the distributors are interested in pinpointing different wines from different Appalachians so that they can get those wines on their inventory. So they can sell those wines to the clientele that are is requesting those wines. So that’s another service that we provide us in on the platform. Yeah.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 14:16

Usually like it’s the it’s the retail part that fascinates me the most because a lot of times you do see database people that connect the wineries or vineyards with distributors, wholesalers, and then on the b2b side, but actually going down to the to the retail level. That’s That’s pretty great.

Howard Marx 14:33

Yes, because in most other countries besides the states, reject there’s the the three tier system is not there. Okay. And you one can sell directly to the retailer. So the winery or vineyard in California can sell directly to California and friends and have that wine that Our product distributed around Europe or throughout Europe. So the states has a way of structuring alcohols,

Drew Thomas Hendricks 15:12

I guess so indoctrinated into this three tier system that I kind of forget there’s the rest of the world out there.

Howard Marx 15:17

That’s right. There’s about 151 Other countries out there, and I’m not, obviously there’s about 189 countries. But the difference is a lot of the Muslim countries forbid, the sale of alcohol. So

Drew Thomas Hendricks 15:38

Iran and 45 of them right there.

Howard Marx 15:41

Yeah. And so there’s, there’s plenty of those Somalia and so on and so forth. So we don’t even you know, we don’t even have data on them. Obviously, we’re sure that there there are 151 Other countries besides

Drew Thomas Hendricks 15:55

that drink wine and enjoy it drink wine

Howard Marx 15:57

and have have actually drank wine must be for the states drank wine. Yeah, actually, centuries before.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 16:05

Oh, absolutely. So your background did it cut? Did you kind of grew up in the wine industry loving wine with a wine loving family? Or how did you decide to make this your latest entrepreneurial venture?

Howard Marx 16:17

Yeah, so my wine, my so my wine my, my family has, has had, you know, wine on the table frequently, but it’s a love that I have for wine and that I’ve got a I’ve acquired and then I’ve acquired a love for the business, actually. And the challenge is that Latin American, European, and even Asian, Asian, I should, you know, I’m including Australia and New Zealand, because they are in that part of the world, even though they’re not specifically Asian. So, yeah, so there’s, there’s, there’s all sorts of challenges. Yeah, so that’s why.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 17:06

So yeah, you have such a global overview. I mean, it’s such an insight. So from 2017, on through 2020 23. Now, how have you seen like this global flow of wine? And basically, how is the how is this the environment changed over the last six years or so? With the flow of wine around the world?

Howard Marx 17:28

Yeah, well, before COVID. The It was challenging for us, because the idea with it was there, and we did implement the platform, but once COVID hit to physically go to these trade shows, for example, a trade show in Dusseldorf, which is the biggest wine trade show in the world. It was a challenge. So they actually canceled that twice. So and it has reduced dramatically this year, it was, you know, and the amount of people that have been visiting. So it all has gone online. And this is this has boosted our presence, and our you know, our support for the wine world.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 18:22

Yeah, it’s amazing what what COVID has done for certain companies, especially the online base, you have the right idea. And COVID actually prevented presented you with the right environment to actually let it flourish. Did you have to adapt your platform at all during the to react to

Howard Marx 18:38

Yes, we cranked it up dramatically. We’re on Google Cloud. Where, where the API’s have to be, you know, polished a bit more. And we were able to do this years ago, with a great team, that we have a developer team in India. And obviously, the sales, the online or inside sales team also boosted their emails and phone calls. So we were able to switch from physical to non physical.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 19:20

Worldwide. Yes. Yeah, I think that it was interesting, from the tradeshow side of it, seeing how they were reacting because they were the aggregator. They were that marketplace for so long. It they were set up to react as quickly so they started doing the virtual trade shows and all that. But you’re right there with your platform. Did you Did did you step up more that matchmaking or how did did the platform shift at all other than the technology? No, we’ve just kind of

Howard Marx 19:50

we’ve pretty much have have had the platform stable. We haven’t changed much. We haven’t added bells and whistles to it because most people outside the states don’t like the bells and whistles so much. They wanted to keep it clean and keep it, you know, down to earth and simple. Remember that most people who access our platform, their first language is not English. And so we want to keep that very simple, very easy to use. And that’s, that’s what we’ve done. And that that has been like Steve Jobs I think made you know, this, these comments said it’s the hardest thing is to make things simple.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 20:39

Absolutely. Absolutely. Is the platform available? Is it multilingual? Or is it primarily in English,

Howard Marx 20:46

it’s only in English right now. But you can obviously, if you use Chrome or Safari, you can translate it by clicking the Translate button. And you can have any language, send emails out in seven languages, English, Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, German, and Dutch. Because those are major languages and for the wind speaking world, but

Drew Thomas Hendricks 21:19

currently, so your social profile, your social streams are all very multilingual as well? Yes, correct. Now, it’s some of the 150 countries you’ve got, aside from the US, where’s your strongest user base,

Howard Marx 21:34

shopping user base is definitely Europe, Europe and Latin America. Unfortunately, the states has this three tier system and it it really breaks down the competitiveness. We were, you know, this is probably a bit on the tangent, but the States is going into an oligopoly, on not only the wine world business, but we see this in the cellphone industry and the airline industry, there’s only about four or five top companies that control you know, these industries, and you know, the list goes on and on Coke and Pepsi, and so on and so forth. And, but you get the point. And so that has hindered capitalism. And that has made this country quite, you know, stodgy in my opinion. When you look at Europe, you can go from Italy, through Germany, to Poland to Denmark, and not only in a truck ride, but you know, no taxes, no anything, it’s just simply a matter of supply chain. Little more,

Drew Thomas Hendricks 22:49

yeah, facilitated commerce. That’s, that would be refreshing to see, especially in the, in the wine industry in the US. Talk to me about um, so you mentioned Greek wine in the Netherlands and some of those others, what’s some of the more, what’s some of the different connections between the countries that the average listener might not realize is really where the, a lot of the trades going on right now.

Howard Marx 23:14

So we, it’s impossible for me to track where the we don’t get a commission. That’s the other important point, I should have said that before. I, we don’t charge a commission on a sale or anything, it’s just a street fee. We’re looking into other, you know, other ways of expanding or growing our business. But right now we don’t. And

Drew Thomas Hendricks 23:40

that’s actually a benefit, because you’ve got, you know, privacy, like you’re not, you’re not sitting there, like creating this global monitoring of these all these deals taking place between your users, you’ve got this platform that they can interact with one another.

Howard Marx 23:54

Greg Drew, and we actually don’t know if the deal as you’re saying actually happens or not. Because if you place an offer, and I think it’s great, and I emailed you directly, I don’t go through Vinvinea at all. So I email, you know, you at your Gmail or what have you, or your professional email, but things are we don’t know that actually things do or don’t, or and how much the deal goes through for a million or 10 million and we actually don’t know and we’re okay, not knowing that’s not our business.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 24:35

No, it’s good to know. I mean, it’s really, it’s good that you you’ve made it not a it’s almost a it’s a feature that you’ve got the that you do allow this like almost privacy and you allow this platform to just kind of run itself without trying to get in the middle of these transactions or claiming the irresponsible for the transactions. Anecdotally, though, you must hear about some some deals that go by that people’s lives become easier by using your platform?

Howard Marx 25:02

Definitely, definitely, we’ve had some great connections throughout the world. Argentinian wine has been sold throughout Germany much easier. Chilean wine has been sold. And then in the Netherlands, we’ve known a couple of deals there. I’m not too sure about the figures. But yes, some good connection, some good matchmaking hasn’t has been done. And obviously, in Greece, I use that example. The Greek wine is loved in the Netherlands, and so on and so forth. So, yes, and, you know, and speaking of, of love for wine, the love for wine in the states does change and more throughout the years, depending on who writes an article on whatever newspaper and so everyone you know, wants to have that type of wine. So that actually generates money for us and growth, because then you would be the distributor will be able to pinpoint which producers which winery which vineyard would would be best to sell those wine, the one the wine that they’re interested in buying for their clientele. Yeah.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 26:17

And we’re now going forward. And we’re we’re recording this right now at the start of 2023. Where do you see the global kind of wine trade going over the next couple years?

Howard Marx 26:28

Well, Europe is pretty stable. Latin America is pretty stable. winegrowing because of the financial pressures that we’ve had inflation and devaluations Latin American wine, have, you can get very good Latin American wine at a very economical price. That’s for sure. China. Yes, China is producing an incredible wine. A bit north of Beijing, very close to the desert. That could alter the wine world in the the next 10 years. I would say it does take a while. But they have excellent French. And biologists. There. And they have a great, the some of those have some of those vineyards have a great team. And they’re actually bottling with, you know, within the state. So that’s important, within the states wish, this three tiered system, which would be done away with because it seems like we have 52 countries within the states because Washington DC acts as a state even though it’s not a state. They have their own legislation and so on and so forth. So, yeah. Wish would that would happen? I don’t know. I don’t know much more. Yeah. And Asia is a growing market, as well.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 28:11

Yes. Do you see a lot of Chinese exports coming over to the US?

Howard Marx 28:17

Yes, both. They’re Chinese wine is actually trying to enter Europe as a very economical wine. So younger people. But I do see that. I do see the other way around vice versa, French and Italian, as well as Latin America, wine being sold in the big cities in China, so that the market for those wines is enormous. Not only Hong Kong, but shins in Beijing and Shanghai, of course. But yeah.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 28:58

Yeah, that’s it. So I’m very curious. I watched I’ve watched a few documentaries about wine and wine in China, and I can’t wait to see what’s happening over the next 20 years there. Yes. So we do have people listen from all over the world some of the show, but we do have a pretty us dominant listener base. Talk to me about how maybe a US winery would use your platform. With this little your Sure,

Howard Marx 29:22

sure, sure. Sure. US winery vineyard would use our platform three ways. The first is what I mentioned earlier, they would present offers, if they would want to export their wine at a higher price than they’re currently selling it here within the states. So that’s an eye open or they would want to sell over supply. So they would present their offers. They would go in and say we want you know this is our product with these details and so on so forth. It’s very easy to click and choose and then anywhere in the world, they would be able to pick a country. And we would be able to pinpoint the importers and the end distributors that are interested in, in those types of products in that country that they that they specify. The second way is, they would be actually able to find within our platform, the right importers and the right distributors for their wine in any country in the world. Let’s say they’re interested in Japan, South Korea, so on and so forth, what have you anywhere in Europe, countries are all there. And the third way is they will be able to view requests for us wine, so that’s, you know, California or Oregon, wherever Washington State, Texas, wherever they are in New York, New York State as well. And see if there are any requests so that they can do so those three are the main functions.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 30:59

That’s that’s very valuable. If you’ve got a, you know, a glut of wine, like you got too much Cabernet, you can then find that across the across the world people searching for, you know, California Cabernet. Sure,

Howard Marx 31:13

correct. That’s right, exactly. Or, if it’s a smaller winery, you could also export or wine, I mean, yes. So it’s a very, it’s both for niche and not niche products. Yes.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 31:29

Very powerful. I was looking, I was looking through your LinkedIn profile. And you mentioned that you had an AI component to this task. It’s the hot topic. Now, how does AI fit into?

Howard Marx 31:39

Well, we’re trying to trying to see and learn from our customers, what type of wines what details they put in what details, they don’t maybe add some special features, so on and so forth. So maybe we could improve upon our platform and actually grow their businesses even further. So the whole goal is for these wineries and vineyards to grow their business globally, because, you know, you can get you could probably get bigger revenues abroad than you can within your country. Because wine is as you know, everyone knows is country specific or even territory specifics on so we’re so can only grow, you know, Rio Hawaiian in the Rio region. We can do that in California, whenever you can have, you can make chips and you can make iPhones anywhere with the right technology, but you can’t actually make you know, French Bordeaux wine somewhere else.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 32:55

No, it’s all tied to place. Correct? I know in China, they tried to they built the exact city. That looks like Bordeaux.

Howard Marx 33:04

That’s right. Bordeaux.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 33:07

Very cool. Weather. Yes, your I can see the AI though. Really just help helping enhance the recommendations enhance the just the way the system works? For sure. Yes, and

Howard Marx 33:23

we’re doing our best, it’s not easy. And we’re doing our best to learn from our clients. So yeah. Eventually we’ll incorporate you know, a, you know, a real AI section or part or assessment. I mean, yeah,

Drew Thomas Hendricks 33:43

I think it’s working its way into every, every aspect. That’s right. Yeah, not surprising. So as from 2017 2023. How do you stay motivated and excited, like what motivates you? Well,

Howard Marx 34:01

I love speaking and dealing with everyone around the world. And that’s what motivates me. I wake up early in the morning, and I’m on with Europe. In the middle of the day, it’s Latin America, and at the end of my day, because I’m based in the US, I deal with the western part of you know, obviously the US, Australia and New Zealand so the the whole my days a long day. 24 hours with the conversations, yes, it starts on Sunday night and it just doesn’t stop and I just I love it and I takes me places. I’ve been in Europe a couple times and so on so far, so every year on there a couple of times and it does bring that joy, I guess the global joy to me

Drew Thomas Hendricks 34:59

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I get a lot of energy from having conversations, which is why I do these podcasts. I love talking to people in the industry so I can definitely relate to that. For sure. But it’s it is a lot of work 24 hours conversations a day with every timezone. What do you do for fun when you’re not talking?

Howard Marx 35:20

Yeah, definitely not speaking. I, I go by myself and play some golf. With no, no one there and no one around me but birds and trees. And that’s about it. So that’s, that’s usually what I do in the weekend. Or whenever I can get a couple hours. So that’s what I do. And I swim. Obviously, I’m not listening to anything. So I keep my head grounded. By by swimming. Yes.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 35:52

I like that, too. It’s funny when I work out like when I go swimming or surfing or running analysis, any headphones. I’ve gotten enough. Was it?

Yes, did I lose you? Maybe I don’t know. We’re back. We’re back. We’re back. Now I just talked about how silence for me. I spend most days talking. Just it’s very restorative. Definitely. Well, gosh, Howard is wrapping down. Where can people find out more about you and then

Howard Marx 36:33

Everywhere? Sure. It’s vinvinea.com. You can find anything you need there. Yeah, and you could always send an email to info@vinvinea.com Or you want to pronounce that

Drew Thomas Hendricks 37:00

Yes. Well, thank you so much for joining us. It is a fascinating conversation.

Howard Marx 37:08

Thank you Drew. It was a pleasure.

Drew Thomas Hendricks 37:11

You have a great day. You too. Take care.

Outro 37:20

Thanks for listening to the Legends Behind the Craft podcast. We’ll see you again next time and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.